This is a currently running debate, but nonetheless worth further speculation from a mixed audience guys. Its an an argument that baffles me to ths day as well as infuriates me.
In the US in a poll several years back, over 80% of the doctors stated that they were religeous and seriously believed in the power of prayer to bring a patient through their illness and be well again - in other words a miracle from god - recovering 'miraculously' from cancer, that sort of thing.
Firstly there is a serious issue when a) so called intelligent people (doctors) are that staunchly religious (if at all!) and b) when even if only to an extent, the doctors who are trained to work on your illness or surgery, are relying on 'God' for help - they should be relying totally on themselves and their own abilities and leaving nothing whatsoever to chance (even if it is so-called god) - this means that when you're having brain surgery over there, or you are receiving chemotherapy for cancer, you could well have a doctor who is relying almost exclusively on the intervention of god to save you. What does this tell you about what they were or weren't paying attention to during medical school - what was on their minds? god, or science?
God or science? Maybe none, maybe both. Science searches for the 'unknown' ones and those in the shades used to be more than today in old times. When it was out of the docs' hands they were just evading the responsibility hiding behind 'god' which is whom nobody would have balls to object. God refers to be something to believe in full heartedly to determine you can get what you hope for.
Even today; bio-energy and that kind of stuff are following the same path. Not addressing one simple god but some power above you that you can not see but you can claim that you feel. All about occupying human psychology, catching them in the most gullible and naive and needful periods of their life.
woops sorr was so annoyed with that in my train of thought I missed my more important argument.
From the previous example, Out of a hundred cancer patients, how many would you say have survived? say its 75%. How many of them would you say prayed or had prayers for them in specific to survive? lets say it was 50%, and lets say that of the 75% who survived and were prayed for, there was conversely of the 25% who died, 50% of those also were prayed for. I guess those poor people who were religious but died anyway were 'foresaken' - no? then I suppose the argument is 'god had a plan for them' or it was 'just their time'. Fine, make excuses for 'god' as much as you like, but surely as a believer you shouldn't have to make excuses - its all alledegly black and white...
Lets step it up a gear - what about blind people (sorry, vision impaired...) obviously this isn't a fatal condition, but sitll people will pray for their sight back- how many of them gain their eyesight back over time? say 10%? how many of those were praying for it? 50% again lets say for argument. This way the mathematical ODDS have thinned. Seems that if God can create anything or do anything, he'd make the odds roughly the same.
HERES THE CLINCHER:
What about those patients who have a different non-fatal condition. Lets s ay about 15% of hospitals are treating those who have lost an ear, an eye, a finger, a toe, a leg, two legs, all limbs?
In the HISTORY OF MANKIND - when has there been a single case of someone gaining back a lost limb? (not a prosthetic one, an actual limb - you don't get back non-prosthetic cancer or prosthetic sight). Never.
I'm sure there have been plenty of people who have prayed before or during an accident, or indeed after, "please don't let me have to lose my leg...."
But absolutely 0% of these millions (nay billions) of people have ever been given their limbs back by God.
What does god have against amputees? Is there something wrong with them tat they never are and never will be entitled to a good old fashioned miracle?
When asking a religious doctor in a conference about this a few weeks ago in town in Dundee, they said they beleived that prayer can help cancer etc - when confronted with the amputee question they laughed and retored "of course not, thats silly, and not medically possible either".
I asked my local minister the same question, and his answer was much the same.
So its pretty convenient that not only are we having people standing and making excuses for god based on nothing, but as long as something isn't medicall possible, its not spiritually possible for it to be a miracle to heal.
So I'm sorry to all you aumptees out there, I guess to some small percent, God has 'foresaken' you.
If I wasn't so baffled right now, my argument would have been more salient - my apologies.
Well I don't really believe that is an important point today as medicine seems to be covering this well. :-? Or I just don't see what your real point is.
Anyway, I think all kind of religions and mysticism are the visible formation of positive thinking. And it surely is needed most when one's life is in danger in a corer of a hospital.
I thought I would be more entertained when I saw you posting, Dave. :-P
The point is anyone who recovers at hospital has done so as the result of medical expertise. It is completely down to their help and your metabolism whether or not you recover - god has no say in it, and neither does prayer and it can be shown easily statistically that there are just as many people recover or don't as whether they pray or don't.
The point is that worst of all, doctors in some coutnries aren't puting 110% of their own effort into this, theyre leaving even a fraction (and in many cases a BIG fraction) up to god's intervention, thus not giving you correct care.
Also if you and your friends and relatives are just relying purely on prayer to get you through it, you're detracting from what should be careful rest, sticking to medication, careful diet and a generally positive attitude - not the belief that a magic man will make it all better.
No really I think I got the point perfectly now you have posted that last message. What I am saying is I don't think doctors are like in 21st century anymore. Well at least not in 1st world countries and the ones who are on progress.
And one contradictionary input from myself: don't you think some patients who believe in god - some god - something...etc; can be much more positive minded abut recovering and this positivity in their mind could get their body react to treatment faster than others?
Yes I do believe that some people's misguided faith gives the equivalent of a placebo affect - but why put your faith in something that doesn't exist, when there is all the real actual evidential faith to put into those who are trying their hardest after years of committed education and service to ensure your recovery and good health.
The problem is that afterwards the faith and prayer is put one of two ways.
If the patient recovers and makes a good new start, it was all down to God - scarce is the creit thats due, given to the health professionals.
If the patient passes away or gets worse, the doctors are to blame. God plays no part in it - god did his best apparently, and the Doctors screwed up.
If you're going to be optimistic, be optimistic, and thank science and all of its glory that you have pulled through thanks to its brilliance over centuries, nay, millenia, of exploration that has over time and history been thwarted at every attempt by religeon (despite being consistently proven wrong)
Yeah but what's the point of discussing this. You can not tell people what to believe or what not to believe. You can not tell them 'stop drinking' because alcohol plays with thier visions and give them temporary state of happiness - sadness...etc. I mean as long as Science is not involved with misguided whatever people should feel free to hope for anything. That is the beauty of life to bring diversity on. It is just very cold when you put it that way. I mean I really hope you lead your life in the most healtiest way but I wonder if you would be thinking this way if you had some health issues. Having said that, don't think I am much of a religious or fatalist type. Occasionally yes. I just love to respect to harmless placebo effects.
People drinking is a pollution of their own body (one which I adopt myself on occasion) and is a reality of hallucination etc.
Its perfectly obvious, since not proven, that God doesn't exist, and that there are doctors working their hardest for you.
I would not even consider hoping that God would help me out, that would be insane. I would muster my own inner metabolism and draw my own positivity from my wife, my family and my friends who want to see me, and I want to see.
Relieon is aa horrific institution, namely the abrahamic religeons, and if people are going to hap-hazardly or half-heartedly believe in them then the evil sprouted from it can continue in a worse way, because if you're hap-hazardly beleiving, you've no real objections either way, If you are one way or the other, at least its well defined.
Like I've always said and may post anew about, is that religeon, namely the line of popes and imans etc, are owe science and scientist national apologies.
People drinking is a pollution of their own body (one which I adopt myself on occasion) and is a reality of hallucination etc.
And God is a belief people keep occupied their OWN minds. I am not talking about a specific religion. They are all the same anyway. What I mean is -again as long as people keep profesional science out of it!! - it is no harm that people convince themself to be hopeful holding a branch from this tree called religion. When something bad happens; some people pray, some people drink, some people talk, some peoplee commit suicide, some people do drugs, some people go under psychologcal treatment....etc. Mostly because they are searching for a consolation. I don't see why the "praying" part among all above is being such a big problem.
I understand what you say. That God, religion..etc is pointless. I say just let it go. It is just one of hundreds way of passing life mainly under influence of traditions inherited from centuries ago. That makes people be less scared of death.
Relieon is aa horrific institution, namely the abrahamic religeons
Why do you feel so?
This is an easy one to explain. What I'll do is write a list of just a few specifics, and if you need further explanation point out which.
American 'creationism', Twin Towers & Pentagon & London bombings, Crucifictions, Witch-huntings, Torture for 'heresy' in general, the crusades, the armada, spanish inquisition, molestation, AIDS in third world, homophobia, sexism, genicide, encouraged rape, sessasion of human rights, down-paddling of proven science, torturing of excellent and innocent scientists (eg Gallileo), evangelism, terrorism with respect to 'hell' and 'devil', indoctrination of the simple minded and of children, ...
I have to stop there purely because my kettle is boiled - that should do for now.
I have already read The God Delusion but thanks for your views on religion. I take it you don't believe in a higher being as such? lol Each to their own. I may not like "religion" as such especially the institutions but I do have my own faith and beliefs in a higher being (God? Buddha? etc) and I don't think there is anything wrong with that :)
When you speak of all those atrocities and many of them cause by warring religions (or religion gone haywire) then yes I agree to an extent. But I think if people be True to themselves, live for the Now and not be so hung up on the past or the future, to love more and be kind and compassionate towards each other regardless of religion/colour/race etc then the world would be a better place. Unfortunatly World Peace does not come so easily as stubborn oxes out there still decide to fight and be truely nasty to their fellow human beings. This gets me so cross and disappointed in society.
I would assume you are a deist then? presumably you agree with the 99.9% proven theory of evolution etc, but in the meantime believe that all of it was the result of some paranormal creator?
To me, thats fine. Organised religeon is atrocious and owes humankind a global apology for so many things.
I'm not opposed to the idea of some form of god, but the bible is a load of misconstrued ammended and fictionionalised junk, so for these evangelists to take it all word for word is so retarded - most of it was written over 300 years after Christ allegedly died by dozens of authors.
My next post will probably be creationism v evolution but given that the bulk of people here are non-american, I'd assume it wouldn't get very far.
God delusion is good but I prefer Christopher whatshisname's stuff.
Holy blood and holy grail are good also.
A lot of the above is my own speculation but the good Dawkins has made it easier for near-athiests or at any rate non-evangelists to be heard
