Your evoloution arguement also has it's down sides, Did you catch that Andrew Mar thing on BBC 2 last night, It was all about Darwin's Theory of Evolution and Origin of the Species by Means of Natural Selection.
One of the points he made was how during the First World War, Weapons were developed to kill, maim and basically inflict as much damage as possible without consideration of the humanity of death, this was because several people had gotten a hold of darwin's book and taken it a little to literally, These people seen themselves as the superior race and were basically wiping out the inferior races, who basically didn't matter so fuck them if they died or were maimed by things like mustard gas. They were inferior anyway.
He also mentioned that next weeks program will mention the lengths Hitler and others went to try to "breed" a new "Master Race".
Still reckon Evolution is not without it's faults ?? Surely the people who take the bible too literally are no better or worse than the people who take Darwin too literally ??
Dubz
Its an interesting point, one which I've heard all too often, but unfortunately the meat and potatoes of it is simply this: Andrew Marr is a total imbecile.
Its a completely non-parallel paradoxical argument.
If you really want me to start up again on it, I will, I don't have a problem pointing the many many flaws in what Marr is getting at, and neither would darwin have, nor would dawkins, or any rational thinking person.
Trying to argue that point is so convaluded and backwards its pretty much laughable.
I won't go any futher into it unless you're genuinely curious, but I will say this:
If I decide to climb a sky-scraper to the top with a bag of canonballs, and titre them on the edge of the roof, on a very busy day, and begin a little target practice on the pedestrians below. Lets say I get away with doing it for 20 minutes, and in that time I maim hundreds and kill dozens. Is it then quite alright for me to argue that his lordship sir Isaac Newton, and copernicus, along with Maxwell, and all their theorys concerning gravity were my motivation and my means to carry out my crime. Would it then further be reasonable for my judging system to blame their works, say that Gravity is a premise which can lead to mass marder, and therefore should not be used or taught etc?
My motivation for killing was my own, I borrowed a scientific FACT in order to carry it out and demonstrate how it is done. I can't then say one specific book or paper on gravity is utterly to blame, or even partially for that matter. The point us, the theory of gravity is there like all other scientific facts; it is a fair and neutral scientific description of a process which we can observer (the falling motion towards earth, the sun etc). Evolution is no different, it is also an observable process, and the theory is what describes what we can see to the best of our ability. Furthermore it can be peer reviewed and repeated for consistency.
To say what Andrew Marr and a few other insane non-understanders of the scientific method, is like saying that DNA sequencing has too many detractions and bad-sides and short-comings, because people have discovered that they are descended from a race or culture opposite of their own.
Not to mention the people he was talking about, te nazi's etc, were utter psychos. Theyve completely misused and misunderstood a scientific principal - they haven't used the correct definitions and in any case they havent USED the principal - evolution is a natural process. People reading the bible to literally is pretty concerning considering the nonsense in it. At least Darwin's theory is sound, ergo, even if you could connect the gas chamber directly to darwin and his theory (which you can't), its not like we can 'un-make' the theory and un-observe what we've seen with regard to natural selection - its observable right now. The bible , obviously, is a totally different (and might I add insane) kettle of fish
sorry draggd on abit - thats not my main argument, theres much more to it than that.
And might I add you really really really need to find a way to increase your IQ into the standard, that being MORE than two digits. That said, if I do want advice from someone with an IQ of less than three digits I'll ask, I don't know, a turnip.
@dave: hope you don't mind me printing all these posts of yours about these subjects and taking them with me to university.
The last few day's we had a pretty intense discussion about religion and about the bible in peticular. (About how/if it should be read)
Surprising many people are taking it word by word - as for me it's nothing but a sci-fi-book.
Even for my father - and he's a priest - and has all those hebrew/ancien greek-editions..(well he's not a reverend because of the beliefe - obviously...)
the discussion is going to be continued first thing on monday...and this is just a perfect point to make :)
@dave: hope you don't mind me printing all these posts of yours about these subjects and taking them with me to university.
The last few day's we had a pretty intense discussion about religion and about the bible in peticular. (About how/if it should be read)
Surprising many people are taking it word by word - as for me it's nothing but a sci-fi-book.
Even for my father - and he's a priest - and has all those hebrew/ancien greek-editions..(well he's not a reverend because of the beliefe - obviously...)
the discussion is going to be continued first thing on monday...and this is just a perfect point to make :)
Hi Nell,
since I don't have copyright, thats fine :P ;)
I would make the point that I'm dffinately (obviously) not always 100% right, and especially writing on here I can get a bit flusterred and side-tracked so often the points don't quite cusp as well as I intended, theyre always better in person.
Having said that though, I would actively encourag people to really think about and question all the nonsense that is ploughed into them from a young age where they can't make decisions.
If I was born in the middle east, poun to a penny for THAT mere fact, I would be a muslim. Isn't that interesting? Before I've had a say, before I'm born and before anyhting has happened, I'm a muslim "by birth" - a religeon isn't something you genetically inherit! Similarly if I was born in ancient greece, I'd never have heard of the Gods we speak about today, and would be worshipping zeus and appolo.
We shouldn't have a religeon just because its our parents.
Interesting about your father. We also, as a planet, need to reconise that nuns, priests, reverends, clergymen, bishops, and the pope deserve absolutely no more respect than a dustbin man, a school teacher or a shop clerk. We don't have to be apologetic for our beliefs (or lack of them.)
Furthermore I was recently told by an idiotic muslim that atheism is basically another religeon!!
Is NOT COLLECTING STAMPS a hobby?? Is NOT WATCHING TRAINS a hobby? is NOT HIKING a hobby?
No more than NOT HVING A RELIGEON is a religeon!
Hi Nell,
since I don't have copyright, thats fine :P ;)
I would make the point that I'm dffinately (obviously) not always 100% right, and especially writing on here I can get a bit flusterred and side-tracked so often the points don't quite cusp as well as I intended, theyre always better in person.
Having said that though, I would actively encourag people to really think about and question all the nonsense that is ploughed into them from a young age where they can't make decisions.
If I was born in the middle east, poun to a penny for THAT mere fact, I would be a muslim. Isn't that interesting? Before I've had a say, before I'm born and before anyhting has happened, I'm a muslim "by birth" - a religeon isn't something you genetically inherit! Similarly if I was born in ancient greece, I'd never have heard of the Gods we speak about today, and would be worshipping zeus and appolo.
We shouldn't have a religeon just because its our parents.
Interesting about your father. We also, as a planet, need to reconise that nuns, priests, reverends, clergymen, bishops, and the pope deserve absolutely no more respect than a dustbin man, a school teacher or a shop clerk. We don't have to be apologetic for our beliefs (or lack of them.)
Furthermore I was recently told by an idiotic muslim that atheism is basically another religeon!!
Is NOT COLLECTING STAMPS a hobby?? Is NOT WATCHING TRAINS a hobby? is NOT HIKING a hobby?
No more than NOT HVING A RELIGEON is a religeon!
Sorry, rant over!
So what are you then? :) Atheist? Legally? ;) Last week a group of ex-muslims created an official group of ex-muslim which is for them to step forward against the Islam and it's rights. They're looking for asylum in Switzerland because they're haunted by their own law for abandonning their beliefe. The Koran says: punishment by God -but the Sharia orders a death-sentence for all these unbelievers...How screwed up is that? So much about "Freedom"...
Well this organisation or group is fighiting for the freedom to choose - whatever you wanna choose -and for the laws/courts in CH(Switz.) - Since the muslims-living here want to have their own court of law with a muslim judge - judging by the Sharia...cool! Back to Middle Ages!
Another very intense discussion is about these new placards (launched by atheists) pined on the buses which say: "God proably doesn't exist - don't care - enjoy you're life anyway" or " The bad news: there's probably no God - The good news: You wouldn't need Him anyway"...etc. - This campagne's already been launched in Luxemburg and Germany, I think..but now the Christians come and want to forbid it...hellooo? You guys have your own campagne- hand away from ours!
They so have a placard: "If there's no God - prove it" - But isn't it to them to prove? I mean, when I say: There are fairies, trolls and wizards - is it you're job to prove me wrong - or mine?...fuck that!
About my father: Back than, where they lived, people went to college either studying engineering (when they're good at math) or theology (when they're not) -
If you're a reverend you don't have to participate in the army, you have a pretty easy job, you get a house, car etc....
in the area where I live, I know like 10 reverends - not one of them religious.
But I think it's more of a social-worker-thing, than beeing a real priest...you know - u take care of people suffering from something etc...
My father - f.i. uses the fairy tales of the Brother Grimms - as a moral guidline..so he quotes from there, instead of this guy, who believed he could walk over the water...
One girl in my old class back in the Gymnasium (High school?) actually wrote, when she came to the Darwin part on her bio-final, I do believe in creationism - and nothing more...
FAILED!
For a school experiment I went to 7-9 diff. religions/sects...
under these:
Hare-Chrisna, Mormones, Scientology, ICF, Alpha, Chrishona, etc.
Never had so much fun!
Scientology actually tried to track me down - but whe had pre-paid-cells :) ,
Hare-Chrisna had damn good cookies (withous sugar, nor milk, nor flour...maybe some pot?)
ICF (international Christian Fellowship): They were like the best of all of them: First they said: Every baby is bad - til it's old enough to cherish Jesus..., people can't be good - themself- but God can act through them and do good stuff...but when they do bad things: it's all about the people.. AND there exist demons and witches and of course, my fav.: the devil! They actually said - judging by some scars of mine and my non-existing-belief: I'm possessed by a demon!
How hilarious! They invited me to a next session - guess some kind of an exorcism...but I kinda missed it :) Maybe next time...
Ah and yes: How do they capture the people: They're looking for young ones: It's not a ceremony, but a real show! With bands/music, theatre, acrobats...and a whole lot of security guards...(so you don't pray to the devil????)
The Mormons are also clever...they invite students for free-English/German lessons- into their church (which looks like a normal house) - but they don't give themself away - til the students are actually IN the house - in the lesson - sitting there...paying attention -...to...what? a priest or a teacher?
Sorry...got carried away...but I'm really pissed at all these methodes..
I'm ivited to another demon-session from this ICF-Church...(they've put me up to a prayers-list..)..well I'm gonna go...but I gotta see the movie first...someone already seen "The exorcist"? Is it good? :)
Furthermore I was recently told by an idiotic muslim that atheism is basically another religeon!!
Is NOT COLLECTING STAMPS a hobby?? Is NOT WATCHING TRAINS a hobby? is NOT HIKING a hobby?
No more than NOT HVING A RELIGEON is a religeon!
Sorry, rant over!
I believe that atheism is basically a religion too. You can't compare it to hobbies because they are not a set of beliefs like religions are. Atheism is the belief that there is no God. It is not an 'un-belief'. Atheists, as far as I an see, tend to worship Darwin and read science books instead of the bible. They also enjoy pushing their beliefs on other people just like (I would say sometimes more so) any other religion, as you are aptly demonstrating. A far more 'neutral' standpoint is Agnosticism.
What a bizarre and horrifying thing to say. If someone says to me "what religeon are you" I don't reply "Atheism". It is NOT a religeon or even likenable to a religeon.
I have never in my life 'rpreached' to someone to abandon their beliefs and follow atheistic ideals. So your assumption that I (or many/any other atheists) do that, is frankly insulting.
You are exactly what is wrong with the world's view of an atheist. We do NOT have a set tablet of beliefs, and we do not NOT have beliefs at all. We are often (but no where near majoritively) scientists or philosopohers. My 81 year old grandmother is an atheist, but was brought up in scotland in the 20s, she has never had or wanted any real affiliation with christianity. It was around her, she sang the hymns etc at school, but it just didn't attach to her. She rarely talks about beliefs or religeon, because she IS an atheist, just not an active one.
If you walk through the streets and stop many people and find the atheists, most of them will be normal people, may be dustbin men, doctors, cleaners, teachers, shop clerks.
The simple fact (as hinted to above by nell) is that the religeons are already there, already set up, and pushing out that we have to believe in them. Myself as an atheist, do not CHOOSE not to believe in the religeons, I simply don't. I can't fathom how I could choose to believe in anything. I merely find them unbelievable given the (lack of) evidence. I come on here and talk to friends and explain WHY I am an atheist.
And lets not forget what atheist means - it is a NON theist, ie, not an anti-theist, not an anti-christ, not a heathen blasphemer - we have nothing to blaspheme against!.
The analagy of a hobby is perfectly acceptable. Theists are the ones who make the so called 'leap of faith' to believe in whichhever god, say christianity. They are therefore atheist with respect to islam, with respect to judiasim, with respect to sikhism, or hinduism. They do not believe in the theology of those religeons, therefore are a-theist with respect to them. I am atheist with respect to christianity, islam, zeus, appolo, thor, pagan gods, the sun god, the rain god.
Of course, for goodness sake, there are some nutjobs in the world - some are theists, and some are atheists, but most nut jobs do horrible things based on their state of mind - ie a psychological problem; they may decide to dedicate their actions to what they believe in, they may not.
I simply do not 'belong' to an organised religeon. Any and all beliefs I have are my own, for my own use and my own understanding. I don't believe in reiki, or crystal therapy, or light therapy, but many atheists do. They don't believe in, say Jesus, but are happy to believe in 'the powers of crystals' or the 'power of atlantis'.
And as said before, having a theist say to me "go and prove that my god doesn't exist" is a ridiculous thing to say. If I tell you theres a goblin in the middle of the earth heating up sausages to power the magnetic core, you would ask ME to prove it - it would be unreasonable for me to expect you to trust me or even worse, to disprove it.
Bottom line, atheists believe in all sorts of things, they quite literally do not owe themselves to any sort of theism (ie a god or organised religeon). We don't all colelctively believe that theism is wrong either. An agnostic is basically a fence sitter or who literally hasn't had enough information one way or the other to make up their minds. Thats the position a child SHOULD be in.
I'm sure you'll find that dubz, nell, aida, beatle babe and many others will find what you've just said highly insulting as well as intellectually morose.
What a bizarre and horrifying thing to say. If someone says to me "what religeon are you" I don't reply "Atheism". It is NOT a religeon or even likenable to a religeon.
I have never in my life 'rpreached' to someone to abandon their beliefs and follow atheistic ideals. So your assumption that I (or many/any other atheists) do that, is frankly insulting.
You are exactly what is wrong with the world's view of an atheist. We do NOT have a set tablet of beliefs, and we do not NOT have beliefs at all. We are often (but no where near majoritively) scientists or philosopohers. My 81 year old grandmother is an atheist, but was brought up in scotland in the 20s, she has never had or wanted any real affiliation with christianity. It was around her, she sang the hymns etc at school, but it just didn't attach to her. She rarely talks about beliefs or religeon, because she IS an atheist, just not an active one.
If you walk through the streets and stop many people and find the atheists, most of them will be normal people, may be dustbin men, doctors, cleaners, teachers, shop clerks.
The simple fact (as hinted to above by nell) is that the religeons are already there, already set up, and pushing out that we have to believe in them. Myself as an atheist, do not CHOOSE not to believe in the religeons, I simply don't. I can't fathom how I could choose to believe in anything. I merely find them unbelievable given the (lack of) evidence. I come on here and talk to friends and explain WHY I am an atheist.
And lets not forget what atheist means - it is a NON theist, ie, not an anti-theist, not an anti-christ, not a heathen blasphemer - we have nothing to blaspheme against!.
The analagy of a hobby is perfectly acceptable. Theists are the ones who make the so called 'leap of faith' to believe in whichhever god, say christianity. They are therefore atheist with respect to islam, with respect to judiasim, with respect to sikhism, or hinduism. They do not believe in the theology of those religeons, therefore are a-theist with respect to them. I am atheist with respect to christianity, islam, zeus, appolo, thor, pagan gods, the sun god, the rain god.
Of course, for goodness sake, there are some nutjobs in the world - some are theists, and some are atheists, but most nut jobs do horrible things based on their state of mind - ie a psychological problem; they may decide to dedicate their actions to what they believe in, they may not.
I simply do not 'belong' to an organised religeon. Any and all beliefs I have are my own, for my own use and my own understanding. I don't believe in reiki, or crystal therapy, or light therapy, but many atheists do. They don't believe in, say Jesus, but are happy to believe in 'the powers of crystals' or the 'power of atlantis'.
And as said before, having a theist say to me "go and prove that my god doesn't exist" is a ridiculous thing to say. If I tell you theres a goblin in the middle of the earth heating up sausages to power the magnetic core, you would ask ME to prove it - it would be unreasonable for me to expect you to trust me or even worse, to disprove it.
Bottom line, atheists believe in all sorts of things, they quite literally do not owe themselves to any sort of theism (ie a god or organised religeon). We don't all colelctively believe that theism is wrong either. An agnostic is basically a fence sitter or who literally hasn't had enough information one way or the other to make up their minds. Thats the position a child SHOULD be in.
I'm sure you'll find that dubz, nell, aida, beatle babe and many others will find what you've just said highly insulting as well as intellectually morose.
You're sure you're a non-believer? Damn! You'd been a great priest! (I can see you on the pulpit) Or maybe a lawer? ....certainly a politican?
I totally agree with Dave, as I said before.
a-theos means "away" or "without" any God - which means without any belief. So it'd be an oxymoron to say atheists believe in anything.
We are - or I am - convinced by certain thing - but we don't believe in them. We either know them - understand them - or trust sbd. to understand them - but with prove - that's why we are convinced of something - because there is logic and evidence.
I do understand that people often seem to react personal affected whenever this subject comes up. They say it's too personal but on the other hand they don't seem to have a problem to talk about psych - problems nor money nor politics nor else -
in fact - you can only discuss things that are personal - try to discuss a proven fact!
Let's discuss the fact that the earth is not a plate? ...see? :)
So it's an discussion not a mission - all these Alpha-courses, these "hidden-English-courses", etc. have a missionary purpose.
We just like to discuss - or I like to.
I really enjoy religions - I once even wanted to study them-as a part of the human history and culture.I mean it's fascinating - all these stories! Especially the egyptian ones (with their death-rituals...cool, isn't it?)
But only as cool as a movie, or a good book by Dan Brown - to me anyway...(loved the Davinci-Code).
And about that "you don't make fun of my religion" - earlier said -by -actually I don't remember nor do I care-
If you (all the people) can make fun of (and that's what comedy does - that's what satire is all about men!) everything else - like the sick ones, the pope with this anti-condom-pro-latin-pro-Pius-thing..., against Bush and his weapon/oil/morality fight, or China with it's freedom, or - Achmed, the dead terrorist - what do I know
If you can make fun of that - you can do it about religion too - it's nothing personal- never has been.
Otherwise - any humour would have to be forbidden...
I think it was Imanuel Kant that once said that moral should come from reasoning not from God - categorial imperative..?
But when i recall this right - he wasn't that sure about pretty anything just before he died- not even if his existence is even real - (à la : Matrix :))
from this point of view...yes I believe that there is no God and that there is something like gravity etc...
Scio me nihil scire ;)
But saying the book of Darwin is like the bible to us is just simply wrong :)
As we constantly work on science! :)
Darwin has been proven wrong, by the way. Genes are not inflexible -but can be "changed" by something as simple as food :) as shown with many twin projects (quoted by the a BBC-documentation..)
Of course a good scientist recognises that someone branching out without knowing much/anything about genetics making the observations that darwin did basically makes him a genius, especially with so much religeous oppression around.
What I wanted to say was if you want to find them all, best way to find my posts from years ago is to search in the forum for 'evolution', and remember there is genesis, noah's ark, adam and eve, etc etc
I never suggested that atheists aren't 'normal people'. I just stand by the understanding that to believe there is no God is still a belief. Atheism is a judgement or standpoint on how life and the universe was (or was not) created just like religion is. If I look in the dictionary, I find the definition of atheism to be "the theory or belief that God does not exist". Certainly its true that not all atheists are scientists - lets just call it one denomination of atheism.
Apologies for making it sound like I believe all atheists force their thoughts and beliefs on others though, I didn't mean it like that. I just intended to highlight a certain tendency or potential for some atheists to express their beliefs sometimes quite aggressively just like (other) religions can. But seriously dude, you can't deny that you're just a little bit preoccupied with tearing apart and poking fun at religion.
Furthermore I was recently told by an idiotic muslim that atheism is basically another religeon!!
I don't honestly care whether or not atheism is a 'religion' or a belief of what, but what I do know is that I hear more people preaching as atheists than preaching from a religious viewpoint.
