To me Genesis is a piece of literature. It's an interesting fiction story.
You'd have to define 'interesting' to me, I'm not familiar with it in this context!
I knwo this isn't what you're saying, but The problem is there are now religeous people saying what you're saying (don't know which way you swing) but they say, oh well don't be silly, obviously its not true you've to take as a story. The fact of the matter is hundreds of years ago people assumed this to be bare fact, and nothing but. This is exactly what they thought happened word for word. So now people think it is justifiable by saying its just a story, like Noah which was also considered bare fact, and by some still is. Theres no consistency - what do you decide is fact or fiction and how do you decide it? Who has the authority to decide it? If these were just stories, was jesus? Was the water into wine? Was the weird pregnancy thing? and THAT purely shows in one swift swoop just how unreliable the bible is.
Interesting as it could be reading a short story...
I'm an atheist, so I don't believe in what the bible says. I haven't even taken the trouble of reading all of it and doing a research about how much of it can be considered a historical fact or not, because I really don't care.
But I liked the Genesis. It's a good fiction story to me.
Well, even as a fictional piece I can't find any way of it being interesting.
Its someone's bizarre made up convaluded idea of the formatino of the earth from 1500 years ago, and they were so off the mark its unbeleivable, especialyl since they wrote it 'through god'.
To me it would be like someone writing about how the sky isn't really blue, its really dark orangey-purple, and its proped up by some man with wooden legs as it is made of solid matter. Its just stupid.
Have you been watching this "Around the World in 80 Faiths Thing" ??, while I don't agree with religion it still does raise some interesting theories and ideas.
Have you been watching this "Around the World in 80 Faiths Thing" ??, while I don't agree with religion it still does raise some interesting theories and ideas.
Dubz
Hiya I think I caught one or two but can't recall any of it! I do remember "make me a christian" that was really ridiculous - I don't think they succeeded with anyone - bizarre program.
not especially - its a thread about the only reasonable study of the book of genesis - well the first 25 lines anyway, I was in hysterics shortly after that.
Have you been watching this "Around the World in 80 Faiths Thing" ??, while I don't agree with religion it still does raise some interesting theories and ideas.
Dubz
Hiya I think I caught one or two but can't recall any of it! I do remember "make me a christian" that was really ridiculous - I don't think they succeeded with anyone - bizarre program.
haha, as if...
On the 80 faiths thingy, there were two on late last night, the first one was about the States and as expected it was shite (Evangilism, Mormons, Spiritualists, etc) the only decent part was the part about The Burning Man Festival.
The second programme was much more informative, He travelled to India, and did various sects of Bhuddism and Hinduism. Really interesting, even if you don't believe in that sorta stuff.
Have you been watching this "Around the World in 80 Faiths Thing" ??, while I don't agree with religion it still does raise some interesting theories and ideas.
Dubz
I was reading about Pete McCarthy's show 'Desperately Seeking Something' from the 90's which is along the same lines, and it bought up an interesting point that many people bought up with religion who become atheists, far from then believing in nothing, tend to have a more open mind to religions of the world. Not in their entirety... but in certain aspects, or even just the idea of 'faith' without boundaries if you will.
I think picking on specific religions is biggoted bullshit. And I think if you think you're smart doing so, and feel the need to shove your beliefs repeatedly and obnoxiously in other peoples faces you're a bit of an idiot. I've participated in many religious ceremonies in my life... buddhist, catholic, protestant persuasions, salvation army, church of the latter day saints, and the spiritual beliefs of some Australian Aboriginals. It's all very well to sit on a computer saying 'look at what the bible says, it's it bullshit, all religion is bullshit... ra ra rant rant rant' but unless you've gone out and participated/ witnessed different aspects of the world, all you're doing is recycling and regurgitating the same arguments based on the thoughts of those before you, whether consciously or not... which is supposedly what the problem with religion is....
This wasn't focussed at Dubs... I just suck at that whole quote business on here.
Is it directed at me?
In general I agree with you, without a good grasp of a lot of religeons, theres not a lot of point in commenting on religeon as a whole (certainly not with alleged forthrightedness).
But for me personally, I was brought up under the Church of Scotland (in a mild manner), I played piano for christian and catholic services, I attended services on far apart occasions in the dundee mosque, synagogue etc. Also have had long discussions with mormons and Jehova's whitnesses.
I'm very open minded in the respect that I'm happy to read something directly, and comment without bias. I don't profess to have read all the 'holy' books of all religeons but I've read a good deal of a lot of them.
To me organised religeon in general is just as much nonsense as holistic medicine, homeopathy, chinese traditional medicine, crystal therapy, light therapy, rearrangment of DNA from the gifts of Atlantis, etc etc. Its myths that are written badly, and regurgetated by people in modern day who should be able to assess the evidence in a sensible manner and come to a sensible conclusion without fear or hope of life after death, or rather a lack of it.
I was reading about Pete McCarthy's show 'Desperately Seeking Something' from the 90's which is along the same lines, and it bought up an interesting point that many people bought up with religion who become atheists, far from then believing in nothing, tend to have a more open mind to religions of the world. Not in their entirety... but in certain aspects, or even just the idea of 'faith' without boundaries if you will.
I think picking on specefic religions is biggoted bullshit. And I think if you think you're smart doing so, and feel the need to shove your beliefs repeatedly and obnoxiously in other peoples faces you're a bit of an idiot. I've participated in many religious ceremonies in my life... buddhist, catholic, protestant persuasions, salvation army, church of the latter day saints, and the spiritual beliefs of some Australian Aboriginals. It's all very well to sit on a computer saying 'look at what the bible says, it's it bullshit, all religion is bullshit... ra ra rant rant rant' but unless you've going out and participated/ witnessed different aspects of the world, all you're doing is recycling and regurgitating the same arguments based on the thoughts of those before you... which is supposedly what the problem with religion is....
This wasn't focussed at Dubs... I just suck at that whole quote business on here.
Haha No, I actually agree with a lot of what is said here, I was brought up Aethist and as such do not have a belief in a God, but I am not arrogant enough (yes I did say arrogant in relation to me :-p) to be absolutely certain as I do not know everything and as such there could be something out there.
I do have a problem with religion but I think it's parts of certain religions, usually the parts that are bigotted and racist, Any religion that describes people as infadels, heathens or believes in a caste system which treats lower castes badly to me is not a tolerant religion/society. That said there are also parts of these same religions which I do believe in, like helping your fellow man etc. When i was watching that thing last night, there were a couple of points I liked...
There was a pyramid tent thingy at The Burning Man Festival where people posted cards or left gifts for loved ones who had passed away, they sang, cried, laughed, meditated or whatever they felt like doing and even the guy presenting who was a christian pastor, remarked that "this is exactly what a church should be, freedom to grieve in whichever way the feel".
There was a Hindu woman who lived by the graveyard looking after the corpses of the dead, the whole reincarnation thing and her faith meant she had no fear of death but rather approached it a lot more open mindedly. It was really quite interesting.
I also watched a thing about the new Aethism Movement in the States, these guys are fundamentalist, they picket churches and aggresively push their "lack of Faith" on the other religions. This, I feel, is just as "religious".
I was reading about Pete McCarthy's show 'Desperately Seeking Something' from the 90's which is along the same lines, and it bought up an interesting point that many people bought up with religion who become atheists, far from then believing in nothing, tend to have a more open mind to religions of the world. Not in their entirety... but in certain aspects, or even just the idea of 'faith' without boundaries if you will.
I think picking on specefic religions is biggoted bullshit. And I think if you think you're smart doing so, and feel the need to shove your beliefs repeatedly and obnoxiously in other peoples faces you're a bit of an idiot. I've participated in many religious ceremonies in my life... buddhist, catholic, protestant persuasions, salvation army, church of the latter day saints, and the spiritual beliefs of some Australian Aboriginals. It's all very well to sit on a computer saying 'look at what the bible says, it's it bullshit, all religion is bullshit... ra ra rant rant rant' but unless you've going out and participated/ witnessed different aspects of the world, all you're doing is recycling and regurgitating the same arguments based on the thoughts of those before you... which is supposedly what the problem with religion is....
This wasn't focussed at Dubs... I just suck at that whole quote business on here.
Haha No, I actually agree with a lot of what is said here, I was brought up Aethist and as such do not have a belief in a God, but I am not arrogant enough (yes I did say arrogant in relation to me :-p) to be absolutely certain as I do not know everything and as such there could be something out there.
I do have a problem with religion but I think it's parts of certain religions, usually the parts that are bigotted and racist, Any religion that describes people as infadels, heathens or believes in a caste system which treats lower castes badly to me is not a tolerant religion/society. That said there are also parts of these same religions which I do believe in, like helping your fellow man etc. When i was watching that thing last night, there were a couple of points I liked...
There was a pyramid tent thingy at The Burning Man Festival where people posted cards or left gifts for loved ones who had passed away, they sang, cried, laughed, meditated or whatever they felt like doing and even the guy presenting who was a christian pastor, remarked that "this is exactly what a church should be, freedom to grieve in whichever way the feel".
There was a Hindu woman who lived by the graveyard looking after the corpses of the dead, the whole reincarnation thing and her faith meant she had no fear of death but rather approached it a lot more open mindedly. It was really quite interesting.
I also watched a thing about the new Aethism Movement in the States, these guys are fundamentalist, they picket churches and aggresively push their "lack of Faith" on the other religions. This, I feel, is just as "religious".
Dubz
Oh no! I agree with everything you say! haha.
[EDIT]I feel this thread is pretty much how you described those people in your last paragraph. Maybe it's because I'm Catholic (though please don't read that as meaning I agree with more than 20% of the official stance of the church) I'd also like to point out, in the 21 years of being a catholic (out of choice or birth) which has included being bought up by someone who spent two years in a seminary, with several relations and friends who are clergy or sisters in buddhism, anglicanism and catholicism, and been to both denominational and non denominational schools I have never once been led to believe the earth was made by god, homosexuals are bad, or dinosaurs never exsisted. Infact one of my abiding memories of my vaguely catholic education is the story of the good samaratin... which was basically saying it's not about your religion it's how you treat your fellow human being, not a bad thing for a 9 year old to learn I don't think. I know this must upset some people who would like to believe all religious people are idiots, but I'm going to have disappoint you there. [again, not for dubs... ]
I have also had friends who've been all sorts of religions and I feel quite protective of a persons right to believe in whatever they feel. I've sat in a room with a pastor and 100 people speaking spanish... no idea what they said... but you could feel their love for what he was saying, and they treated each other with respect and had a sense of community that was obviously there. I know that comes across has happy clappy and lovey dovey, but I think that's exactly one of the points the 80 religions show was trying to get across, people should have the right to practice their beliefs however they choose, grieve however they choose, believe whatever they choose without having to defend themselves or be ridiculed.
I don't think there's anything wrong with any beliefs, be they scientific (like obviously the author of this thread is trying very 'subtley' to put across) or that the pyramids of Egypt and the Maya are actually communication points which line up so when the world is going to end in 2012 a greater power can be transmitted (like someone in my archaeology group believes), or that there is no God/higher power/whatever. It's not my business, who am I to say? Who is anyone to say.
kiwi, I'm highly impressed by all the experiences you've had the chance to experience. I even feel jealous :)
Anyhow I am curious to know which of the facts catholic church preaches are the ones you reject and which the ones you accept. I attended a catholic school with daily praying, messes and catholic religion class 5 hours a week. First as a kid and eventually through the years I discovered not only the absolute lack of evidence in most of the theories they proposed but also what my common sense tells me, as: there's nothing 'universal' to be believed, or that the catholic church thinks women are men's slaves, for eg. So now I can't accept all they tried me to as a child =P I have my own ideas
Haha, nothing to be jealous about... I didn't go about randomly attending different churches, I just went if I was invited. It's a good thing about moving around so much, you learn new things you couldn't from a computer/book, and you realise some things you were taught are a crock.
Umm well, maybe my schools were more mainstream? We were never forced to pray, we had morning prayers, masses on feast days etc, but other than that it was normal. No one ever said 'you're not as good as a man' or 'every other religion isn't true' it was probably the opposite. I spent 2 years of my secondary education at an all girls catholic school in NZ and we had a few nuns, and religion classes and all the usual, but you never spoke about it normally with your mates, it wasn't forced upon us, it was just a special part of our school if you will... and since we were all girls we were never told we weren't good enough, it was the opposite, we were told there was no excuse for doing worse than boys, it wasn't even obviously taught, it was just there.
Umm well.... my beliefs... I dunno... an obvious one would be contraception, it was never bought up in classes apart from for sex-ed classes which were compulsory in all schools... and these started at 9 years old. Apart from that, abortion and contraception weren't portrayed as 'bad' etc, they just weren't mentioned... that's what parents, magazines, and your mates are for. I think the choice for abortion is a personal choice.. I wouldn't, but nor would I say no one should. Personally I think condoning abortion etc is just as bad as objecting to it.
I don't believe the world was created in 7 days by God... it's a creation myth,.... obviously, and one of many... and the bible to me is like Aesop's fables... they're kind of a guideline to how to live... treat people with respect... forgive people... I don't think it's something to be taken as gospel (excuse the pun) and I also think non-believers are as guilty for believing all christians believe the bible, as christians who think it's all fact do. Does that make sense?? Probably not....
I think religion is a personal thing, like all things in life, you take what you believe from it, and leave what you don't. The important thing is not to judge people... like I go to mass occassionally and think 'god.. some of this is crap' and I realise how stupid some of it must seem, but at the same time I'm not saying it's not true.. I'm aware of it, but it's in the background.
And as for the Pope and the Vatican... well, they're the hardcore element of the Catholic church, and have to represent the views of the majority of what is the worlds largest religion. Not everyone believes in what they say, but nor do they not believe in parts of it... which it just like politics etc... bahhhh I don't know... 'tis all so complicated!
