This is terrible, and I'm not talking just about the attack on the Flotilla, but about the whole thing, particularly the Gaza siege. I'm sick of the world's hypocrisy. And of the impunity of the powerful States and economic/financial corporations. And of the lame excuses being passed off as valid explanations. Absolutely sick of it all.
Of course, blame it on the victims. Poor Israeli soliders were deffending themselves, like they did in 2008/2009, when the deaath toll of the "war" was: 3 Israeli civilians and 10 Israeli soldiers(4 of them killed by friendly fire), and over 1400 Palestinians, civilians in its vast majority, and many of them under 18 years old.
And if you think the boats are full of baby bottles and do-gooders, you're rather naive about Hamas.
Well, I'm not going to pretend to know everything, because I didn't take part on the organisation of the flotilla or anything of the sort. But the names of some of the people who were on the ships have been published and I can't imagine Henning Mankell (Swedish author), a Peace Nobel Prize winner, 80 year-old Holocaust survivors, human rights activists, journalists or German parliament members attacking Israeli soldiers.
In fact, I'd been following the news on the Freedom Flotilla before this happened. Israel had threatened to attack the ships, so extra security measures were taken regarding the control of the contents of the cargo, just because they knew they would try to prevent them from getting in using the "you're sending aid to Hamas" excuse.
And nothing can change the fact that the ships were full of civilians and sailing in international waters when Israel attacked. It was completely ilegal. They killed at least 9 people. And the blockade is downright barbaric.
On the other hand, after studying the matter for over a year now, I believe that Hamas is a very complex movement. The "terrorism" label tends to be loosely applied, disregarding the huge diversity existing among these organisations, and facts and processes tend to be overlooked. Pragmatically, Hamas has more urgent objectives in mind, other than the destruction of Israel, no matter what its organic charter states. Mainly because it's proved to be an impossible task for a movement of the sort of Hamas, even more considering that Israel has the support of the USA, and that alliances of Middle East countries have failed to do so since 1947. But also, Hamas has deeply changed its political approach since it won the elections in 2007. As the elected authority in the occupied territories it has obligations towards the Palestinian people and their everyday life, so Hamas can't hold the radical views it held when the movement was born (in the middle of the first Intifada), because it would attempt against its continuity in power and it could cause it to lose the support of the Palestinian people. Hamas is nothing without the support of the Palestinian people.
So yeah, I think those ships were carrying humanitarian aid. I find this version more consistent than the Israeli government's version of a provocation to Israel and an attempt to help Hamas, because, like Israel authorities say, "there's no such thing like a humanitarian crisis in Gaza". This is the myth of the "good occupation" all over again. I'm not buying it. And neither is part of the Israeli people, who also condemn the attack and the blockade.
I guess I'm naive about still believing in International law...
And if you think the boats are full of baby bottles and do-gooders, you're rather naive about Hamas.
Yes Darran, the ship WAS full of baby bottles and do-gooders without any weapons which was also confirmed by the Israeli side as they defended themselves they have found some "knives and clubs" on the ship. DEFINITELY MAKES SENSE. It was a Turkish ship, "Mavi Marmara", which had 600 passangers, 350 of which were Turkish and the remaining being from many countries including Greece,Spain,Sweden,Germany, Iran, Palestine, Brazil etc. Also the ship was literally invaded by the Israeli soldiers in the international waters, which is against the INTERNATIONAL LAW, if some of the states do care about such a thing. You can check out this video to see how civilians are trying to defend themselves with "stones" and how they are shot cold-blooded by their heads( which is again unethical) :
I am not Muslim myself and I don't believe in any of the religions.I am aware that the "Islamophobia" wave is quite popular in western Europe nowadays and Israel is successfully using this weapon in the Western mass media to affect the minds of the European/American people( if you take a look at the power of the Jewish diaspora on the US media, you would be shocked). I don't care about the politics part of this whole Gaza-Israel thing. 2 million people in Gaza living in a 360 km^2 area, their vital supplies are controlled by Israel, and they are of course given the quarter of what they need according to UN.
If these ships were full of nothing but baby bottles why were the Israeli soldiers attacked with bars, baseball bats and at least two handguns ??
I'm not saying it was right for these ships to be attacked/boarded but rather that it's not as idealistically clear cut as you seem to think. Thet are two sides to this story and the truth probably lies somewhere inbetween.
btw You should not use Fisk as an argument, Fisk has written many pieces on conflict from various places all over the world, (Northern Ireland, Beruit and Lebanon) for example. What Fisk complains about is war and terrorism in general, including the damage that these people do to each other, WHICHEVER side they claim to be fighting for. In summary what I mean is Fisk never takes sides but reports stuff as he sees it, which while having a realism isn't the most objective.
If these ships were full of nothing but baby bottles why were the Israeli soldiers attacked with bars, baseball bats and at least two handguns ??
I'm not saying it was right for these ships to be attacked/boarded but rather that it's not as idealistically clear cut as you seem to think. Thet are two sides to this story and the truth probably lies somewhere inbetween.
btw You should not use Fisk as an argument, Fisk has written many pieces on conflict from various places all over the world, (Northern Ireland, Beruit and Lebanon) for example. What Fisk complains about is war and terrorism in general, including the damage that these people do to each ot
her, WHICHEVER side they claim to be fighting for.
Dubz
What would you do if your house was intruded by some people. Would you say "hey how are you doing buddy?". What is abnormal about their self-defence by baseball bats? THE SHIP WAS INVADED IN INTERNATIONAL WATERS, WHICH IS ILLEGAL! That makes Israel a pirate state. End of discussion. And if Israel continues to be so aggresive in everything they do, God knows where we are heading.
If these ships were full of nothing but baby bottles why were the Israeli soldiers attacked with bars, baseball bats and at least two handguns ??
Bars and baseball bats and knives: they were obviously terrorists of the most dangerous kind... against soldiers with fire guns and stun guns boarding from helicopters. Same thing, really! Oh, but it's also said that there were two handguns in a flotilla of 700 people! Then kill at least nine and injure tens. In international waters.
If these were the weapons they were trying to send to Hamas, I don't think Hamas is doing so well.
I forgot to say, it's clear that Israeli soldiers acted in self defense. I mean, they had sticks!
I notice you two have picked up on the sticks and bats, What was a supposedly peaceful ship doing with at least two handguns ??
The world is not black and white. You cannot condemn this action so vehemently without knowing ALL the facts. I understand that you are both angry and passionate about this however your anger and passion have stopped you looking at this objectively.
You could be right in absolutely everything you say. And the Israeli action could be as one sided as is being reported. However, what if you are not, what if there is something going on behind the scenes with these "Aid Convoys", what if HAMAS are using them to smuggle, guns, people, plutonium into the country, that you do not know about ?? I'm not saying they are, I'm saying What If ??
The action may have been "over the top" or "heavy handed" but do you honestly believe it was carried out for absolutely no reason ?? Do you honestly think that the higher echelons wanted to hand the world a media disaster. This was obviously thought out in advance and the consiquences weighed up before the green light was given.
If you want to believe that it's just Israel being a bunch of bad bastards then you are as blinkered as you believe Israel to be.
I notice you two have picked up on the sticks and bats, What was a supposedly peaceful ship doing with at least two handguns ??
The world is not black and white. You cannot condemn this action so vehemently without knowing ALL the facts. I understand that you are both angry and passionate about this however your anger and passion have stopped you looking at this objectively.
You could be right in absolutely everything you say. And the Israeli action could be as one sided as is being reported. However, what if you are not, what if there is something going on behind the scenes with these "Aid Convoys", what if HAMAS are using them to smuggle, guns, people, plutonium into the country, that you do not know about ?? I'm not saying they are, I'm saying What If ??
The action may have been "over the top" or "heavy handed" but do you honestly believe it was carried out for absolutely no reason ?? Do you honestly think that the higher echelons wanted to hand the world a media disaster. This was obviously thought out in advance and the consiquences weighed up before the green light was given.
If you want to believe that it's just Israel being a bunch of bad bastards then you are as blinkered as you believe Israel to be.
Dubz
Question Everything, Think for Yourself.
Although you seem to disregard him, I would like to quote Fisk on that one because it directly addresses your arguments :
"
But it is a fact that it is ordinary people, activists, call them what you will, who now take decisions to change events. Our politicians are too spineless, too cowardly, to take decisions to save lives. Why is this? Why didn't we hear courageous words from Messrs Cameron and Clegg yesterday?
For it is a fact, is it not, that had Europeans (and yes, the Turks are Europeans, are they not?) been gunned down by any other Middle Eastern army (which the Israeli army is, is it not?) there would have been waves of outrage.
And what does this say about Israel? Isn't Turkey a close ally of Israel? Is this what the Turks can expect? Now Israel's only ally in the Muslim world is saying this is a massacre – and Israel doesn't seem to care.
But then Israel didn't care when London and Canberra expelled Israeli diplomats after British and Australian passports were forged and then provided to the assassins of Hamas commander Mahmoud al-Mabhouh. It didn't care when it announced new Jewish settlements on occupied land in East Jerusalem while Joe Biden, the Vice-President of its erstwhile ally, the United States, was in town. Why should Israel care now?"
I notice you two have picked up on the sticks and bats, What was a supposedly peaceful ship doing with at least two handguns ??
The world is not black and white. You cannot condemn this action so vehemently without knowing ALL the facts. I understand that you are both angry and passionate about this however your anger and passion have stopped you looking at this objectively.
You could be right in absolutely everything you say. And the Israeli action could be as one sided as is being reported. However, what if you are not, what if there is something going on behind the scenes with these "Aid Convoys", what if HAMAS are using them to smuggle, guns, people, plutonium into the country, that you do not know about ?? I'm not saying they are, I'm saying What If ??
The action may have been "over the top" or "heavy handed" but do you honestly believe it was carried out for absolutely no reason ?? Do you honestly think that the higher echelons wanted to hand the world a media disaster. This was obviously thought out in advance and the consiquences weighed up before the green light was given.
If you want to believe that it's just Israel being a bunch of bad bastards then you are as blinkered as you believe Israel to be.
Dubz
Question Everything, Think for Yourself.
I know you didn't say it was right, I'm not saying you do. I just don't agree with your argument.
No, I have considered the two guns in my previous post. And just to make things clear, Israeli version is that the passengers stole the soldier's guns, so it still hasn't been proved that the passengers were carrying weapons themselves. Neither has the so called aid they were trying to give to Hamas... If such thing had even existed, Israel would have told the wolrd right away. They didn't say the ships carried weapons or anything else, they focused on the "provocation" thing, clearly because there was nothing on the ships. The government would not be so stupid so as to find out the flotilla was carrying weapons or anything of the sort and not make it public right away, when the world is condemning the attack.
I'm not going to think "what if". That's the logic of the powers in the world. It was the logic behind Iraq, for example: first the theory of the (non existing) weapons of mass destruction, the war, the occupation. First you assume, then you attack, and only after that you check your facts. That's not how things should work in a civilised world that respects human life and international law.
I believe consequences were weighed up on both sides. People in the flotilla didn't think they were going to be attacked in international waters, and were hoping that the fact that they carried diplomatics from different countries was going to prevent them from being attacked. And Israel was counting on its impunity, which has been going on for decades and decades.
And I don't believe they do this because they're "a bunch of bad bastards". I believe there's a history and a geopolitical power struggle behind all this, that explains why Israel acts the way it does. Knowing this does not prevent me from strongly disagreeing with Israel's actions. But that doesn't mean I'm seeing everything "black or white", or that I'm ignoring facts... it's precisely because of the (objective) facts that I (subjectively) condemn Israel's actions. The fact is 9 civilians were murdered in international waters by Israeli soldiers, and dozens of others were injured. And international law states that those actions are illegal. These facts have not been denied by Israel, they're just trying to justify why they did it, as if "a provocation" would be strong enough reason to infringe international law and take the lives of civilians. Those are the facts, there's no "maybe" in them. You can either agree or disagree. I am taking sides, which I don't think is a bad thing at all. There's people who think that a provocation or the assumption that there were weapons aboard the ships is a good enough reason to kill civilians, that's their problem. The facts remain the same.
And how the hell can Israel lead a credible investigation into its own actions?? It's absurd. It's like asking a murderer to trial himself. Or, like a friend said, asking Al Qaeda to investigate 9/11.
I totally agree with Mankell: there have to be global sanctions against Israel, to put pressure to lift the blockade in Gaza.
Ironic news,Jewish people protested Israil @ Times Square for its' attack on Freedom Flotilla with Turkish & Palestine flags. You can look at the pictures below:
I think it's great that they're protesting what Israel did, and that they support the Palestinian cause, but it isn't ironic. Neturei Karta is an organisation of Orthodox Jews. Orthodox Jews were against the creation of Israel from the start, because the Zionist State was conceived from its inception by the Zionist movement as a secular State, sepparated from religion. Orthodox Jews believe the creation of an artificial state goes against what religion states. The re-appraisal of religion by the Zionist movement developed much later.
But the important thing is all around the world people have protested against Israel's actions, which shouldn't be overlooked... if the world has any decency at all.
This thread caused me to have a dream about Turkey. For some reason, I was on the run from the police and decided the best place to hide would be in Turkey. A nice woman took me in and fed me and gave me a room. I wanted to thank her, so I made her a card with a picture of a turkey on it. (No, I would never do this in real life!) The lady was very offended by my turkey card and I felt really bad because she had been so kind to me.
