An interview with Dougie recorded towards the end of the UK Arena dates in March 2002, touring The Invisible Band album.
Text Transcript: Dougie Payne: DP, Web Team: WT
DP (shouts into microphone) Hallo!, yes can you hear me?
WT Coming in loud and clear.
DP Excellent.
WT Right, I'm sitting with Douglas Payne from Travis on the tourbus and we've only got two gigs left till the end of the tour.
DP Two to go, how you doing?
WT I'm very tired Doug, how are you?
DP (laughing) I'm pretty shattered, the last few days have been the time of the lurgy, which has started doing the rounds, we'll get to the end of it though.
WT Has this been any different to the other UK tours you've done?
DP Yes, very. In that it seems to have gone quite quickly, the first three weeks anyway went very quickly. The last week always tends to get a bit sicky, but it's been good. It's been interesting playing the big venues. At the start we just didn't know what we were capable of, filling a large stage when you can still accurately remember playing stages that were smaller than these four seats ( points to tourbuses seated section).
Before we started this we went back to The Dublin Castle where we did our first ever London show and sat on the stage and had our photographs taken, and it was this little triangular stage that was about 10 foot by 12 foot, and then the next stage we were on was Nottingham which was the next night and the first of the Arena shows, so we were very nervous before that I think. Then after it I think we thought Fuck!, we can do this, we actually can.
WT So do you find that enjoyable, I mean people always say that there's a lack of intimacy that happens with these bigger shows?
DP Well the thing is that at any shows all you ever see is the first ten rows, I mean we've played Glastonbury where we've maybe been able to see the first twenty or thirty rows, but after that it fades into darkness so it still feels kind of ....you've actually got to force yourself to look up, and acknowledge the rest of the people, because you can forget that it's that big. But when you look up and the lights go up, your like Oh fuck!, there they are, so it still does feel just as intimate but it has the added element, the frission of the scale of it, so I find it quite adrenalising.
WT What would you say was your favourite gig of the tour so far?
DP Best one so far, last night was actually great ( SECC 19/03/02 ) that was the third Glasgow one. I really enjoyed the second Wembley, really enjoyed that and Birmingham NEC was great as well mainly because of the scale of it, Manchester. I mean they've all been good but picking a best one is difficult, it's probably between the second Wembley and third Glasgow so far. But who knows what tonight will bring.
WT So Rocket Man is making an appearance in the set.
DP Hoorah! it was never scheduled.Franny had been doing Twenty in that slot. Twenty really works in venues of a maximum of five or six thousand peopleIt really works because what Franny does is he goes away from the mic, unplugs his guitar and does it absolutely accoustically without any amplification.
And that's a really affecting moment in the set. In a certain scale of venue it is really great, but it kinda gets lost to eight or ten thousand people.
So, we've always done a cover in the set pretty much, certainly over the last two or three years. Fran's done River, I've done All The Young Dudes, so theres always been one in there. We were talking about something to lift the encore, what cover could we do? and Fran said why don't you do Rocket Man, because whenever there is a piano about generally we'll have a sing song and Jez will play Rocket Man. He is such an Elton John fan. So that was that, I said I'd give it a shot and we rehearsed it at the soundchecks of the first Aberdeen show and first Glasgow show and then did it for the first time at the first Glasgow show and then it's just been in ever since.
WT It's gone down very well.
DP Surprising yes, cause.... it's quite weird , although the crowd is a mix right down at the front they're a lot younger, 14 or 15 so maybe they don't know Rocket Man at all, so yes.
WT And there are some other songs, you've been writing quite studiously, there are some b-sides on the go, can you tell us a bit about your songwriting process?
DP (laughs) well I dunno, I just carry about a guitar with me, everywhere. Since I got my little Martin accoustic guitar, which I got from Andy Macdonald, it's a lovely little accoustic so I've been twiddling away and.... noodling which is what I call it, which is just like doodling, but on the guitar. But nothing of any note came out until about two years ago when I wrote "Just The Faces Change" in L.A. and played it to Franny in the hotel,and he was like "Excellent, that's your first one, that's the one that works, we'll do that!".
So we recorded that for a b-side and then while we were actually recording that I wrote Ring Out The Bell, I went into the other studio and wrote that . If you constantly do it you sometimes hit these little seams where two or three things will come out at once. Because you can write for months and sometimes all you write will be a lot of pish.
WT So it's a war of attrition, the more you do...
DP Yes, exactly. You listen back to mini discs or tapes that you've done with an accoustic and there's a lot of rubbish, and then there are little bits that are good, but you cant finish them so I suppose it becomes kind of frustrating and you get to the point where you think that you cant do it. That last one was just a fluke. Then eventually something comes out that affects you, makes you really happy or makes you sigh, whatever. It makes you feel something.
WT Do you think that process is the same as...well you originally studied Sculpture, do you think it is a similar process that in the end result your looking for some kind of purity or simplicity?
DP Yes, absolutely, you remember what my studio space was like at Art School it was just a mess, an absolute shambles, full of stuff. Chairs and tables and snooker balls and Goldfish. Full of, basically, rubbish, and kind of like a child in a creche I'd just play with all these things until something happened or it did something and the result had that kind of purity or integrity to it. When it didn't need anything else, it absolutely stood on it's own in this mess of stuff, defined in it's own parameters.
WT You built things that were very much assemblages and I know that your a big Bowie fan, and of course Bowie he used the very famous "cut ups"
DP Yeah the Burroughs thing.
WT Do you use anything like that?
DP Probably unintentionally, but yes. It's funny, I've never thought about it like this but the parallels between the sculpture studio and sitting in my attic or a hotel room writing is similar because it's just loads and loads of different melodies and tunes.
Loads of chords on a mini disc and if you look at my notebooks they are loads of different stuff, different bits from different songs all on the one page surrounded by drawings and eventually it just sort of comes out. It's not like it's an end result of something, it comes out of this malestrom of melodies and words.
WT How did it feel taking these to Fran for the first time? was that nerve racking?
DP (lauging) yes! , absolutely. Before I joined the band, well just as I was joining the band. I'd I got this guitar, my dad had given me a guitar at seventeen, on my birthday, and you learn three chords and you write a song, you know that's the way it goes or try and pull a girl or something, you know what it's like? So since then I'd been writing.
Franny, he brought this Columbus bass, do you remember that Columbus bass in the bin liner, walking down the Woodlands Road or whatever, he brought that round and we were changing the strings on it and I had my guitar and played him this song and he was like "Great, it's great to have more than one writer in a band, and then for four years or something I just wrote rubbish (laughs ) Shit!, oh no, I just can't do it. And Franny is such a gifted songwriter that it is nerve wracking, it still is. But the thing that I've realised is that it's nerve wracking for Franny too, he's as unconfident in his abilities as anybody, as everybody is, as I am.
WT I think in one way it might be good is as some competition, some of the most sucessful bands have had that kind of competition?
[DP] I think it's got to be a good thing, that a band has more than one writer and Andy's writing , although he always says he doesn't enjoy it, and I think that's good. A little competition is a healthy thing. The thing that I was always amazed at was that Queen for instance, every single member of the band wrote a number one song.
WT Is that right?
DP And I think that is an amazing thing, no other band has done that, not even The Beatles have done that. That is a fantastic depth of talent and if we can just keep doing it hopefully we can spur each other on to better things.
WT Well I know that everyone is excited by "Know Nothing" which is a little gem of a song, is that likely to make the next album?
DP Yeah I think so, well you know, we'll wait and see. Often it is good to have a body of work made at the same time, like The Invisible Band was and The Man Who. But it's a strong song so and we've got a good recording of it, it's got something to it which is nice and it's a little bit of a departure.
WT And that's a demo that you made in the studio?
DP Yeah, during the b-sides for "No Cigar" and "Little Bit Of Soul". It's actually one of those songs that I have a guilty pleasure listening to it, not because it's me singing or us playing or because I wrote it. But just because it makes me really happy. It's a one of those song that makes me really smile.
WT Is it true you wrote it on the tourbus?
DP Yes I wrote it down the front, in the pod, and Elliott came up and we were talking abit and he took the guitar and started strumming away and I was like ( gasps for air) ....oh it's cool, I'll remember it, so Elliott left and I ran down and got my notebook and I had different words, loads of nonsense words to it for ages and then I went up to the little attic in my house with my four track.
WT And you've got a incredibly blatant, respectful?, steal in there from The Beatles?
DP Yeah Twist and Shout
WT That is an immediately noticable lift? and well, I was gobsmacked that you had the confidence to lift it, and it works.
DP (laughing) It works quite well I think, you know. I think it's good to have a little bit of cheek. That was the thing that made The Beatles brilliant, was the fact that they were cheeky.
They just lifted things as well, you know you listen to "I'm Down" and it could be a Chuck Berry song, they blatantly lifted stuff, that's the way you do it, that one's been lifted before by Grandmaster Flash in "White Lines" , so it's been used before. But it's one of those things it just works, and I don't know why it works. It's like those sculptures of found objects . It's another found object that you can pop in place, and say there you go that's it.
WT One other thing that I wanted to ask you about now the band have got bigger is the press. Now already on this tour we've had our share of tabloid nonsense and hearsay.
DP Tremendous isn't it!
WT Do you feel an added pressure now when talking to people to be a little more careful?
DP You do find yourself becoming more guarded, and it has that negative effect of when your talking to somebody you don't know you are automatically on guard, just because you never know who you are talking to. But it has the very obvious bonus of making you realise who you trust and who your friends are, which is great.
WT Do you think the problem could be that if you court that kind of thing you will then never be let off the hook?
DP Yeah, there are loads of issues, but the tabloid thing and the celebrity thing in general is dangerous to court, that's why we have never done it, subconsciously or consciously. Purely because it's dangerous, and ultimately only harmful really, celebrity is a negative thing in your life. So I think you've got to be very careful.
The tabloid mentality is not one of great subtlety, there is no grey area. As soon as you say something your suddenly either a saint or a villain, and there is no inbetween. There's no humanity there, it's like the papers themselves, just black and white. That's the scary thing, that's what people react to and you know I do it myself, we all do it, react to the tabloids as if it is fact and it's not, it's conjecture, lies, nonsense and hypocrisy. Somehow these people appoint themselves to be the moral guardians of the country, when they're up to god knows what themselves.The hypocrisy is unbelieveable. But all that aside, the big problem is the stupidity of it and the fact it makes things really easy for people. Look this is bad, look at these bastards.
WT All by simplified arguments?
DP Yes, because it's easy to digest like that, that's good that's bad, millions of people believe that The Sun is the truth.
WT But you follow most of your press don't you, whether it's good or bad?
DP It's almost like a morbid fascination most of the time. I don't know if it is even healthy to dwell on how you are perceived by the papers and therefore how your received by the people who read the paper, or the music papers even, but you can't help it.
WT So after the tour Doug, what will you be doing to relax, have you got a holiday plannesd?
DP Well I think we've got a couple of days off after this and then we got to the Capital Radio Music Awards, and then we go away to Europe for a week, and then we've got a few weeks off
WT I know also that it's just been announced that your headlining V2002.
DP That'll be good, Travis and the Stereophonics, it's like a boxing match (laughter), the big bout!
WT Who's your money on then?
DP I couldn't possibly say, The Chemical Brothers!
Recorded:20/03/02
Location: Travis Tourbus, Glasgow SECC
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