with the right drugs he'll be strong, but not as before obviously! I happen to follow the Tour, like so many french and even more so since I live near Mont Ventoux...stage before last this year so amazing! Been on a few stages before, how about you?
I've never been to France for the tour, but it is my intention to make it to the Ventoux this year!
With the right drugs? He's never been on drugs! Except VIP chemo.. the EPO kept him alive, but that's the only time he's ever used it in my opinion
If you are then we must meet, i live so near and am defo going.
Lance did drugs big time, and that's fine that doesn't make him less of an amazing champ in my opinion, but he did.
Again it's tricky to discuss but ALL major champs did and since the beginning of the Tour. Virenque of course did it but got trialed and all that business. The point is not did they or did they not, they all did. It is very interesting how american, english press tries to blame the french on this. Please really look into it before falling in the traps. When I said the french didn't it was a joke because they did it big times as much as the others. But all this is behind, and the point now is should drugs be allowed or not. If they're not then the anti drugs tests should be really tougher. The best labs are french now because it was such an massive scandal here that the head of the Tour enforced big times. What's happening is very political in the wa
with the right drugs he'll be strong, but not as before obviously! I happen to follow the Tour, like so many french and even more so since I live near Mont Ventoux...stage before last this year so amazing! Been on a few stages before, how about you?
I've never been to France for the tour, but it is my intention to make it to the Ventoux this year!
With the right drugs? He's never been on drugs! Except VIP chemo.. the EPO kept him alive, but that's the only time he's ever used it in my opinion
If you are then we must meet, i live so near and am defo going.
Lance did drugs big time, and that's fine that doesn't make him less of an amazing champ in my opinion, but he did.
Again it's tricky to discuss but ALL major champs did and since the beginning of the Tour. Virenque of course did it but got trialed and all that business. The point is not did they or did they not, they all did. It is very interesting how american, english press tries to blame the french on this. Please really look into it before falling in the traps. When I said the french didn't it was a joke because they did it big times as much as the others. But all this is behind, and the point now is should drugs be allowed or not. If they're not then the anti drugs tests should be really tougher. The best labs are french now because it was such an massive scandal here that the head of the Tour enforced big times. What's happening is very political and sorry sorry sorry must dash now so can't go on any longer.
Hanne, Virenque did fall for drugs big times in his Festina era, big bloody time. Since he's one the most closely tested cyclist in the world...and he's humour is such that he signed a deal with a pharmaceutical compagny! Anyway I was lucky enough to watch him win the race in the VEntoux in 2002, without any drugs, and god that was beautiful and you could tell the difference. The next day he was flat though.
You say : The allegations have come from L'equipe, a French newspaper.
Please desmonstrate. It is not what I think has happened given the informations/news we got here but seems to be what is reported in either the uk and usa. So I guess this is a question or perception.
You say : it's common knowledge to everyone that the French press are out to get anyone who isn't a French cyclist. Sorry mate, do you read the French presse? This is so FALSE I can't believe someone as clever as you wrote this, but again an easy trap to fall in when you only read british/american cycling press.
Le Tour was wan by so many FOREIGN cyclists, spanish, dutch, belgians italians, germans, british etc...the SIMPSON plate at the of the Ventoux for example hadored by the French LONG BEFORE the rest of the world remembered it only a decade ago. Believe me I have witnessed it in the flesh.
Didn't really hear much about Virenque when he ADMITTED he'd doped- because he's French. Point proven? NOT, WRONG AGAIN.
[/quote]
EDIT
sorry my keyboard is going mad...posted this before i finished
You say : The allegations have come from L'equipe, a French newspaper.
Please desmonstrate. It is not what I think has happened given the informations/news we got here but seems to be what is reported in either the uk and usa. So I guess this is a question or perception.
You say : it's common knowledge to everyone that the French press are out to get anyone who isn't a French cyclist. Sorry mate, do you read the French press? This is so FALSE I can't believe someone as clever as you wrote this, but again an easy trap to fall in when you only read british/american cycling press.
Le Tour was wan by so many FOREIGN cyclists, spanish, dutch, belgians italians, germans, british etc...the SIMPSON plate at the top of the Ventoux for example has been adored by the French public LONG BEFORE the rest of the world remembered it, only a decade ago. Believe me I have witnessed it in the flesh.
You say :Didn't really hear much about Virenque when he ADMITTED he'd doped- because he's French. Point proven?
NOPE, AND SO FALSE.
This has been so dramatic here, you have no idea, we heard about it 24/7 for so long it's nearly killed LE TOUR and the love for it amongst the french public. Perhaps noone will believe me but the looooove and adoration in France is like nothing else. It is like ...'beeing french'...like football in brasil...anyway, Paul, you need to visit me for a pastis or a glass of wine and we have a proper cycling fan chat before doing le Ventoux!!
OK, so a lot of what i've read is probably tainted by the media (as is everything we get served to us!) and i apologise. But it's a hard fact that Lance Armstrong is the most tested athlete in history and he has never failed a test. Fact!
What people don't understand is that where this story orginated from (it might be L'equipe or Le Monde, i am not sure which) is that an "American rider failed a B sample in the 1999 tour". Now, i'm certain Armstrong wasn't the only American rider in the tour that year- but people jumped to a conclusion that it was him because of how strong he was that year (he won over Zulle by 7'37!). There has never been an accusation that it was Armstrong's sample.
I agree with a lot of what you've said about the British/American interpretation of things, but i have read some of the stories from the time published in the French papers, and it seemed to me even with my fairly limited French language that they were out to get someone
Paul, you need to visit me for a pastis or a glass of wine and we have a proper cycling fan chat before doing le Ventoux!!
HAPPY CHRIMBO AMIGOS
Pastis or a glass of wine? When i was in Marseille this summer it was 'trois verres de Pastis et une carafe de vin rouge, pour toi!'. Et c'était tous les soirées! Haha
Je monterai le Ventoux avec toi. Mais seulement dans la direction de Sault. Les autres montées sont trop difficiles! Haha
Vous-habitez où en Provence? L'été dernier j'ai visité dans un village s'appelle Grans, à chez d'amis. Grans est près d'Aix-en-Provence. Habitez-vous près de là?
OK, so a lot of what i've read is probably tainted by the media (as is everything we get served to us!) and i apologise. But it's a hard fact that Lance Armstrong is the most tested athlete in history and he has never failed a test. Fact!
What people don't understand is that where this story orginated from (it might be L'equipe or Le Monde, i am not sure which) is that an "American rider failed a B sample in the 1999 tour". Now, i'm certain Armstrong wasn't the only American rider in the tour that year- but people jumped to a conclusion that it was him because of how strong he was that year (he won over Zulle by 7'37!). There has never been an accusation that it was Armstrong's sample.
I agree with a lot of what you've said about the British/American interpretation of things, but i have read some of the stories from the time published in the French papers, and it seemed to me even with my fairly limited French language that they were out to get someone
Oh yes he's SO tested, aboslutely no question about that, everybody's watching him big time and too much indeed.
The whole 'mystery' around Amstrong' tests and the gossip in France is that his tests were not analysed in the same procedure as other cyclists as he was allowed medications further to his cancer, medication necessary indeed but that could mislead if not trick the tests.
The real problem with Lance's was that he wan the Tour so many times in a row without EVER winning a stage and that was very badly perceived by the true cycling fans because it was totally new/unusual. The winner of Le Tour wins stages and big and difficult ones. For fans it's all about 'panache', struggling, fighting and the winner is a hero and that shows on his attitude, his face, his energy. Typically a guy who wins a tough stage is rather flat the next day. There is no question about the amazing talent of Amstrong but for a long time he just wan Le Tour with no apparent emotions, no stages victories, a bit like a machine, not communicating much with the public or the media here and that messed his image up so much I saw people insulting him during the race (ugly). He didn't start that kind of strategy, Migel Indurain was in his time apparently cold but he wan several stages. But during the 2 last Tours Lance won he changed his communication strategy, spoke more, made more efforts towards the public/press and that changed a lot the way he was perceived. I just want to mention the name of the very beloved Greg Lemond, American cyclist the first one to win Le Tour who everybody continues to love here, so really nothing to do with nationalities but more with attitude and strategy.
Still a lot if happening at a very high level with the Managment of The Tour and the International Cycling Federation/Organisation and they have serious disagreements...a lot of the conflicting information we get is rooted in that as well, both wanting to keep their leading roles.
Fingers crossed this year no drugs!
Let me know when you visit ok?
Pastis or a glass of wine? When i was in Marseille this summer it was 'trois verres de Pastis et une carafe de vin rouge, pour toi!'. Et c'était tous les soirées! Haha
Je monterai le Ventoux avec toi. Mais seulement dans la direction de Sault. Les autres montées sont trop difficiles! Haha
Vous-habitez où en Provence? L'été dernier j'ai visité dans un village s'appelle Grans, à chez d'amis. Grans est près d'Aix-en-Provence. Habitez-vous près de là?
Joyeux Noël!
ps. Pardonnez mon mauvais français! Hehe
I'm only a fan I certainly don't cycle that hard myself haha!! Oui Sault c'est la montée la plus facile.
Will get in touch, I'm near Carpentras, must dash, let's fix something for sure Paul.
Joyeux Noël à toi aussi!!
OK, so a lot of what i've read is probably tainted by the media (as is everything we get served to us!) and i apologise. But it's a hard fact that Lance Armstrong is the most tested athlete in history and he has never failed a test. Fact!
What people don't understand is that where this story orginated from (it might be L'equipe or Le Monde, i am not sure which) is that an "American rider failed a B sample in the 1999 tour". Now, i'm certain Armstrong wasn't the only American rider in the tour that year- but people jumped to a conclusion that it was him because of how strong he was that year (he won over Zulle by 7'37!). There has never been an accusation that it was Armstrong's sample.
I agree with a lot of what you've said about the British/American interpretation of things, but i have read some of the stories from the time published in the French papers, and it seemed to me even with my fairly limited French language that they were out to get someone
Oh yes he's SO tested, aboslutely no question about that, everybody's watching him big time and too much indeed.
The whole 'mystery' around Amstrong' tests and the gossip in France is that his tests were not analysed in the same procedure as other cyclists as he was allowed medications further to his cancer, medication necessary indeed but that could mislead if not trick the tests.
The real problem with Lance's was that he wan the Tour so many times in a row without EVER winning a stage and that was very badly perceived by the true cycling fans because it was totally new/unusual. The winner of Le Tour wins stages and big and difficult ones. For fans it's all about 'panache', struggling, fighting and the winner is a hero and that shows on his attitude, his face, his energy. Typically a guy who wins a tough stage is rather flat the next day. There is no question about the amazing talent of Amstrong but for a long time he just wan Le Tour with no apparent emotions, no stages victories, a bit like a machine, not communicating much with the public or the media here and that messed his image up so much I saw people insulting him during the race (ugly). He didn't start that kind of strategy, Migel Indurain was in his time apparently cold but he wan several stages. But during the 2 last Tours Lance won he changed his communication strategy, spoke more, made more efforts towards the public/press and that changed a lot the way he was perceived. I just want to mention the name of the very beloved Greg Lemond, American cyclist the first one to win Le Tour who everybody continues to love here, so really nothing to do with nationalities but more with attitude and strategy.
Still a lot if happening at a very high level with the Managment of The Tour and the International Cycling Federation/Organisation and they have serious disagreements...a lot of the conflicting information we get is rooted in that as well, both wanting to keep their leading roles.
Fingers crossed this year no drugs!
Let me know when you visit ok?
Well first of all, Lance's samples were tested in the same manner as everyone elses. UCI dictates the rules and carries out the tests on riders, so no one gets special treatment. Secondly, Lance has admitted to using the skin cream to treat saddle sores which contained a banned substance- but this was cleared up by the UCI and he was not penalised for it. Yes, Lance was given Epogen (EPO), the doping stuff. But it was during his chemotherapy to boost the red blood cells- not to enhance performance, but to keep him alive. And this was 3 years before the doping allegations, so it would not have been traced- it doesn't stay in the body that long- 14 days is what i've read it works for.
Your point about Lance never winning a stage is completely innacurate too. He has won at least 1 stage in each of his 7 Tour de France wins! And some of these are on the toughest stages of the Tour- L'Alpe d'Huez in 2004, Plateau de Beille (twice!)- and nearly at Mont Ventoux, when he said he conceeded to Pantani as a mark of respect, as well as countless time trials when he literally obliterated the rest of the field.
And funny you should mention about his attitude to the media- in the first few years of his 7, he was voted by the French media as the worst rider for dealing with- but in 2003 they voted him as the nicest and most approachable.
As for his image. You cannot tell me that this face doesn't look tired, struggling and in pain...
And that picture is from the stage at Luz Ardiden in 2003, when he was just 43 seconds ahead of Ullrich in the General Classification, and after he crashed out with Iban Mayo. Then he attacked, got ahead, won the stage, and gained time over everyone!
I agree with you on one point- please no doping this Tour de France! :)
Well first of all, Lance's samples were tested in the same manner as everyone elses. UCI dictates the rules and carries out the tests on riders, so no one gets special treatment. Secondly, Lance has admitted to using the skin cream to treat saddle sores which contained a banned substance- but this was cleared up by the UCI and he was not penalised for it. Yes, Lance was given Epogen (EPO), the doping stuff. But it was during his chemotherapy to boost the red blood cells- not to enhance performance, but to keep him alive. And this was 3 years before the doping allegations, so it would not have been traced- it doesn't stay in the body that long- 14 days is what i've read it works for.
Your point about Lance never winning a stage is completely innacurate too. He has won at least 1 stage in each of his 7 Tour de France wins! And some of these are on the toughest stages of the Tour- L'Alpe d'Huez in 2004, Plateau de Beille (twice!)- and nearly at Mont Ventoux, when he said he conceeded to Pantani as a mark of respect, as well as countless time trials when he literally obliterated the rest of the field.
And funny you should mention about his attitude to the media- in the first few years of his 7, he was voted by the French media as the worst rider for dealing with- but in 2003 they voted him as the nicest and most approachable.
As for his image. You cannot tell me that this face doesn't look tired, struggling and in pain...
And that picture is from the stage at Luz Ardiden in 2003, when he was just 43 seconds ahead of Ullrich in the General Classification, and after he crashed out with Iban Mayo. Then he attacked, got ahead, won the stage, and gained time over everyone!
I agree with you on one point- please no doping this Tour de France! :)
Wow, the amount of stages Lance's won was totally blanked by this all gossip I must admit. Anyway, what you explain about his tests by the UCI is precisely what looks like a special treatment to the public here. Even if it was cleared by the UCI and the drug wasn't in his system/body anymore it still is a 'special' treatment because of his health/condition. I think it is absolutely fine and I find it very unfair that people dispute that but I am only trying to present the way the french public felt about him, it is not my personal opinion. But that's improved.
It is very very clear from my experience here and even more with what you've mentionned about the journalists that a lot of that arguement is rooted on his communication attitude to start with, and it's great that he became more approachable etc...because people have learnt to like him here. But even if there is no question about the efforts he put like anybody else mad enough to run that cazy race (your picture is brilliant!), he did appear cold and a bit like a machine. Indurain looked a bit like that too, and a lof of that is stupid anyway...but the Ventoux stage Virenque wan, sorry mate, Lance had no chance. I was there with my husband, family and cycling fan/friend Peter 3km before the top...Lance was AMAZING (so was Millar in fact) but Virenque won beautifully and well ahead and nobody was gonna touch him...and at that time Virenque was the most tested cyclis on the planet! But Lance's image along the roads did improve at that time because he started to be more demonstrative if I can say.
One think I forgot to mention and a very important one : people also didn't like the fact that he only invested/ran le Tour and stopped doing the other big classics.
OK time for coffee now.
any nice presies for Chrimbo?
Got a wiiiiiii
xx
Wow, the amount of stages Lance's won was totally blanked by this all gossip I must admit. Anyway, what you explain about his tests by the UCI is precisely what looks like a special treatment to the public here. Even if it was cleared by the UCI and the drug wasn't in his system/body anymore it still is a 'special' treatment because of his health/condition. I think it is absolutely fine and I find it very unfair that people dispute that but I am only trying to present the way the french public felt about him, it is not my personal opinion. But that's improved.
It is very very clear from my experience here and even more with what you've mentionned about the journalists that a lot of that arguement is rooted on his communication attitude to start with, and it's great that he became more approachable etc...because people have learnt to like him here. But even if there is no question about the efforts he put like anybody else mad enough to run that cazy race (your picture is brilliant!), he did appear cold and a bit like a machine. Indurain looked a bit like that too, and a lof of that is stupid anyway...but the Ventoux stage Virenque wan, sorry mate, Lance had no chance. I was there with my husband, family and cycling fan/friend Peter 3km before the top...Lance was AMAZING (so was Millar in fact) but Virenque won beautifully and well ahead and nobody was gonna touch him...and at that time Virenque was the most tested cyclis on the planet! But Lance's image along the roads did improve at that time because he started to be more demonstrative if I can say.
One think I forgot to mention and a very important one : people also didn't like the fact that he only invested/ran le Tour and stopped doing the other big classics.
OK time for coffee now.
any nice presies for Chrimbo?
Got a wiiiiiii
xx
I actually agree with a lot of what you've said this time! I can't remember 2002 where Virenque beat him, but i'm sure you're right. As much strength as Lance shows, he does have weak days, and that was probably one of them- and probably why the French press started to warm to him. Although, you must remember that Virenque has admitted that he doped, and perhaps this is why he was so strong against a rider who has never tested positive.. ;)
You've misunderstood me on the UCI testing thing. In 1996 when Lance had cancer, he was given EPO to keep him alive- not to enhance his performance in a bike race. Since he was not competing and out of competition, he was not being tested by the UCI, and this isn't special treatment- because he was pretty much left for dead by Cofidis, his then team. People thought he wouldn't live, let alone win 7 Tours de France!
My point about his positive tests for a banned substance in 1999 is that although there was something there, it was not at a high enough level that it was deemed to be performance enhancing- and although it looks like special treatment to the French press, an unknown domestique for a smaller team who tested for the same thing would get the exact same treatment by the UCI. And this is a totally separate incident to the 'positive sample of an American rider' that the French press went mad over, and the one you are talking about. 3 separate incidents- 1996 EPO when he had cancer, the skin cream with traces of a banned substance in 1999, and the 'positive sample of an American rider' according to the French press.
I agree about Lance not riding the other classics and grand tours. Perhaps this is why he was so strong in the Tour for 7 years, but i think even other riders in the peloton were not happy about Lance's attitude to other races in the season calendar. This is one big difference to his pre and post cancer careers, because before the cancer, he would have riden the classics and the grand tours in a season, but this changed after the cancer- his focus was the Tour. I think Contador is so popular now because he has riden in and won all 3 of the grand tours, as well as riding in the classics. Although Lance is riding the Giro d'Italia this year, as well as the Tour of Flanders- so maybe the French press will be in love with him by July!
